Tri Talk HomepageTri Talk EventsTri Talk ForumsBlogsTri Talk TrainingTri TradeTriPlayerWikiTeam Tri Talk
Structured training in 2017
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Training
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16352
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:

Quite, and I'm not sure how you conclude the gel consumption is high. The recommended dose is every 20mins, I take every 30. So that would be characterised as low consumption, surely? Of the twelve sessions per week usually only two of them are over 90mins - for example I have a 5 hour turbo session and a 2hr 50min run. It makes sense to fuel properly to get the most benefit from these sessions.


A gel manufacturer tells you to consume 3 gels every hour; why would they do that?

If you consume that much gel over an IM, you will probably be walking between portaloos. On the bike I alternate between gel & solid food (every 10km), and I'm moving ever more toward more solid food over longer distances (more energy bars & bananas in races) and reducing gel consumption. Until recently, I was riding fairly hard for 3h on only water, taking the first hour a little easier (had breakfast first). Unless you're going at race pace, you shouldn't need to shovel so much down, and you might want to consider if all those gel calories are being used, especially if you're not losing any weight.

5H on the trainer followed by a 2:50 Brick; do you hate yourself? I haven't run for that long outside an Ironman. The recovery component from that is huge, are you taking it? Can you afford to at this point? Are you actually seeing any gains from this approach? Yeah, Mark Allen did 8h days, but he was Mark Allen.

When more ceases to work, consider trying less (Gordo Byrn)
_________________
25 Years since it all began....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1306

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think he was saying that the ride and run were a combined brick, just that they were the "long" sessions within his training week. But I agree with everything else you said.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Davem




Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 6065
Location: Out of retirement...

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:


When more ceases to work, consider trying less (Gordo Byrn)


I've taken that literally... Razz
_________________
........................._<0.............0
...................._.-\ <,_.........</\_
.....~_.o^,....(...)./.(...)......._/\...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16352
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
I don't think he was saying that the ride and run were a combined brick, just that they were the "long" sessions within his training week. But I agree with everything else you said.


You're probably right about me reading too much into it. Remember that Instatriathlete in my office though, that's the sort of crazy sh!t he claims to be doing already (long wattbike/longish Brick). He's going to burn himself out. Maybe that's why he's never in work Laughing

I'm just angry because TP hasn't posted his new bike yet Smile
_________________
25 Years since it all began....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Whisk




Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 8436
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
stenard wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
not sure that the calories in/calories out is a false paradigm as such...it is a bit more complex than that, but it does operate as a benchmark...

Very much my thoughts. I've never used MFP or a calorie tracking approach, but it 100% follows that if I stop eating $hit I lose weight, and if I eat more $hit I put some on.

Clearly if you go into extreme dieting then the body can do some funky stuff, but a reduction in poor calories (i.e. the chocolate, ice cream, alcohol for me), with little change elsewhere, makes a noticeable difference in a very short space of time.

Tin Pot - Your gel consumption for training seems high. That's a lot of sugar for only 90+mins of work. My understanding is you'd be struggling to have eroded your glycogen stores at that kind of duration. Outside of racing, I very rarely take gels/bars, unless I'm on a 5hr ride or something like that where i might have 1 gel. The only exception is specific race simulation sessions where I validate my nutrition strategy is going to work with my stomach at that intensity.

I'll often do most of my long sessions, particularly runs, off no nutrition/water. At LSD pace, the whole point is you should be trying to encourage fat burning, so what's the need to top up sugars? That's my simplistic outlook at any rate.

And the relevance to the weight issue is that if you're pumping your body full of a ton of sugar that it doesnt need, it's just going to go into storage.


absolutely...except that it is not inconceivable that stores would be low in 90 mins especially depending on start state...and that i'd be eating more solid food, especially if doing LD...


Quite, and I'm not sure how you conclude the gel consumption is high. The recommended dose is every 20mins, I take every 30. So that would be characterised as low consumption, surely? Of the twelve sessions per week usually only two of them are over 90mins - for example I have a 5 hour turbo session and a 2hr 50min run. It makes sense to fuel properly to get the most benefit from these sessions.


it's high in a sense that gels are a regular feature of training...it is more usual to use gels in race specific sessions, and to use the long distance training to develop efficiency...


I'm not sure if we're disagreeing on the principle of fuelling through training, or simply the amount of fuel during training? If it's the latter, then let's talk what a better level of carb intake might be.



There's a big difference between the fuelling requirements for a long training ride and the bike leg of a LD tri. For the training ride, you've got a fridge full of "real" food waiting for you at the finish, so you can get to the end of the ride a little bit depleted and then have some decent quality food to aid your recovery when you finish.

In a race you're refuelling for the run that you're going to do as soon as you get off the bike, so you need to try to put back some of the calories that you are consuming. You should definitely be practicing your fuelling strategy in training to make sure that you know what works for you, but you don't need to replicate your race fuelling for every long session.
_________________
2016: Just riding my bike....
Hot Chillee ride captain (sponsored by WattBike, Cervelo, Mavic, Lazer, Continental, Le Marq, Garmin, Sportique, Pro-Cycle Insurance, Maserati)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 14700
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Jorgan"]
Tin Pot wrote:




5H on the trainer followed by a 2:50 Brick; do you hate yourself? I haven't run for that long outside an Ironman. The recovery component from that is huge, are you taking it? Can you afford to at this point? Are you actually seeing any gains from this approach? Yeah, Mark Allen did 8h days, but he was Mark Allen.

When more ceases to work, consider trying less (Gordo Byrn)


Mark allen also developed his craft over a very long time, didn't have a job to go to and probably slept more than he trained...

There may be a place for a long brick (not that TP has suggested that) although that run is super long...
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2017 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16352
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I think TP is doing those two long sessions separately. My longest run is usually 18 miles, so I guess depending on pace, TP could be covering that in ~2:50? I'll normally take ~2:15 in training.
_________________
25 Years since it all began....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PhilleusPhogg




Joined: 11 May 2015
Posts: 239

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love the fact it's the combination of the 5hr Turbo and brick run causing mild wtf's here.

"You look a bit tired today TP"
"Yeah, I spent 5 hours riding my bike in the garage yesterday afternoon".
"WTF?!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 14700
Location: Farthingstone

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spent many an unhappy hour doing 5 - 6 hour turbo rides
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching

www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach

2017 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Murph333




Joined: 29 Nov 2016
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Havent posted an updated in a while.

Similar to TP I am working my way through TrainerRoad's Program but I am doing the Low Volume and adding two workouts with my local Tri Group.

Still have a fair amount of weight I want to loose ~5kgs ( 93KG) before the race, but this year I have made a fair amount of improvements compared to last year.

Still need to do an updated FTP test but I am at 227 (last year raced at 229) so I hope to hit 240-250 with the new test.

Run has gotten way faster took 10mins of my HM time,

Swim is about the same.


Sounds like TP and I will be roughly around the same speed at IMUK
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2252
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murph333 wrote:
Havent posted an updated in a while.

Similar to TP I am working my way through TrainerRoad's Program but I am doing the Low Volume and adding two workouts with my local Tri Group.

Still have a fair amount of weight I want to loose ~5kgs ( 93KG) before the race, but this year I have made a fair amount of improvements compared to last year.

Still need to do an updated FTP test but I am at 227 (last year raced at 229) so I hope to hit 240-250 with the new test.

Run has gotten way faster took 10mins of my HM time,

Swim is about the same.


Sounds like TP and I will be roughly around the same speed at IMUK


Sounds good - I have another FTP test next week. No sense I'll have improved much though as I have really struggled at the VO2max bike interval sessions.

What would be useful would be a key metric on the run a la FTP testing but TR aren't keen on it.

As much as I'd love a smackdown at IMUK I have literally no idea what's going to happen. I think I should be okay running off the bike this time, so hoping for a significant improvement on last year, but how significant I am sure will come down to weight and run improvement.

Keep at it!
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2252
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, so the long and the short is everyone thinks less carbs on the long bike and long run sessions - can we quantify that at all? Im not really interested in changing what I fuel with at this stage, only how much.

I appreciate everyone's input, it's most interesting.

Jorgan wrote:
My longest run is usually 18 miles, so I guess depending on pace, TP could be covering that in ~2:50? I'll normally take ~2:15 in training.


In my dreams. I have very little confidence in running at speed for three hours, I did my last long run 20km in 2:15 as run walk pretty much as race day 21km in 2:16. The run plan is all perceived exertion, supposed to be executed at "moderate/easy" - and to be fair, it was 'easy' to finish the HIM run.

I guess I'm not really setting a target other than 'faster', I suppose a five hour Ironman run would be a revolution for me...though it sounds slow.

Maybe my question is daft, though, and I just need to run consistently. I'm just disappointed another year of training and no sign of getting faster on my feet. I knew this plan was bike focussed when I chose it, I thought about modifying it from the start but didn't, and at the end of the day if I finish IMUK healthy and not slower I should be content.
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2252
Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dknt freaking believe it.

Just finished the FTP test - it's 228 *again*.

I really struggled with this test unlike previous ones, but that's not credible. The last three tests have all shown 228. I bet other people couldn't get three FTP results precisely the same if they planned it!

Time to bin TR?
_________________
Iron '16 14h30
Half Iron '17 7h39!, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10 Mile TT '16 00:26:30
Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 16352
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm at the point now where just not getting slower is a small victory Smile
_________________
25 Years since it all began....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1306

PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
I dknt freaking believe it.

Just finished the FTP test - it's 228 *again*.

I really struggled with this test unlike previous ones, but that's not credible. The last three tests have all shown 228. I bet other people couldn't get three FTP results precisely the same if they planned it!

Time to bin TR?

Out of interest, are you using virtual power or real power with TR? If VP, are you ensuring all variables are completely consistent session to session?

The only other thing I would say is that if you are focusing primarily on IM type training, then it may be that your endurance base is dramatically improved, just not your FTP. If you did the 40k TT plan for example, that is all about raising your FTP, with very different sessions, so maintaining a stable FTP is not necessarily saying you arent improving in your target area.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TriTalk.co.uk Forum Index -> Training All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 4 of 7
  Share
 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum





Home | About TT | Privacy Policy | Terms and Conditions | Advertising | Contact TT
Copyright ©2003-2015 TriTalk®.co.uk. All rights reserved.