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Killer cyclist on trial for manslaughter
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
I feel moved to chime in here.

First of all apologies to those of you that this post will undoubtedly upset, but it is my genuine held opinion. Remember until spinal stenosis kicked in, and I lost 'balance' on a bike I haven't gained the confidence to 'get back out there' on a bike yet, satisfying myself on turbo or in the gym. But I have done my fair share of fast training for tris and dus, on both road and mountain bikes.

Clearly pedestrians and cars are a big problem in the way that they can 'interact' inconsideately with us, as noted above on this thread.

But.....

1. Sometimes when we are in 'training mode' we can be a bit focused on our time. And can become blind to those around us. Over the past couple of months one cyclist who is clearly in training nearly knocked on old man over in front of me on a bridleway and the cyclist swore at the man. A few weeks later he swore at me as I walked past him and he at speed had to swerve of the tarmac onto the grass. I had the right of way and there was room for him to pass, but I guess at his speed he wanted more room as he whizzed past, swearing at me.

2. Any of you who have witnesses a fresh crop of Oxford students get on their bikes, and try to cycle around town, sometime falling off in the middle of the road as they try 'hands free' or 'adjust their sunglasses' might just think 'and these are our future leaders!" I have witnessed a few near accidents due to cyclist stupidity.

Perhaps it is because of things like this that help drive public opinion to be anti cyclist.

Not saying that it is right or wrong, just noting how it is and one reason why.


as ever, Sloggers, you set yourself up well but then...

the public can be as anti-cyclist as they like...but the CPs and our courts should apply the law consistently and fairly...
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Andy916




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
...Sometimes when we are in 'training mode' we can be a bit focused on our time. And can become blind to those around us. Over the past couple of months one cyclist who is clearly in training nearly knocked on old man over in front of me on a bridleway...


Yes indeed, and the knob you describe stokes the fire of cyclist-hatred.

I do plenty of 'fast road' training but have become gradually more careful to avoid that 'blindness'. I'm close to the brake levers through town, looking out for the delivery van with an open door, the distracted school mum, the mobile phone and earphone users etc etc. I also feel that a cheery wave goes a long way, when a driver does something particularly considerate, and it makes me feel better too. Most of my riding is on rural roads though, some single-track, with villages/towns along the way rather than hell-on-wheels cities. I'm influenced by decades of advanced-qualified riding and driving, and age. More than 95% of riders and drivers could benefit fundamentally from the hazard awareness chapter in any edition of Roadcraft.

Naively I thought there might be wider debate of the leniency culture towards dangerously bad driving, following the Alliston case, but of course Martin Porter's voice is being drowned out. Even the Guardian, who published his piece, reported the main story in a way that had me thinking I was reading a tabloid for a moment - 'mowed down' in the headline and first sentence, 'bike racing videos' in the second sentence, and 'smashing into' used to describe the collision.
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SidSnot




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This one didn't hot the national headlines

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/cyclist-dies-after-crashing-pedestrian-12785475
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidSnot wrote:
This one didn't hot the national headlines

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/cyclist-dies-after-crashing-pedestrian-12785475


Doesn't fit the identity narrative that is currently vogue
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure the difference between your average bike and car is about 1500kg. A lot more if you're driving a white van.

If the defendant had been a middle aged person smartly dressed, who hadn't shown evidence of being a tw*t, it would have been portrayed differently I suspect. Not that it would have prevented the sort of blinkered tourettes we see in the newspaper comments sections though.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
I'm pretty sure the difference between your average bike and car is about 1500kg. A lot more if you're driving a white van.

If the defendant had been a middle aged person smartly dressed, who hadn't shown evidence of being a tw*t, it would have been portrayed differently I suspect. Not that it would have prevented the sort of blinkered tourettes we see in the newspaper comments sections though.


it is intriguing that whilst he is certainly a twat and definitely negligent...he is probably going to jail for an accident he didn't cause...

i wonder if he would have a case for suing whatever it was on her phone that diverted her attention...
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:

it is intriguing that whilst he is certainly a twat and definitely negligent...he is probably going to jail for an accident he didn't cause...


That pretty much sums it up.
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GrahamO




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

35 people apparently died during the course of the trial, elsewhere across the UK.

All killed by cars.

You can be pretty sure the cyclist will get a stiffer sentence than the car drivers.
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Paul L




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
...it is intriguing that whilst he is certainly a twat and definitely negligent...he is probably going to jail for an accident he didn't cause...

Apologies, I've had a long day and can't cover all the points raised in this thread now.

However, I would suggest that any jail time he gets will be as a direct result of his lack of remorse.

Even if you ignore what his actions as an 18 year old, he is now 20 and in the Old Bailey of all places, not some local court.

But (apparently) at no point in the proceedings he (or more importantly his lawyers) thought a word of regret about the loss of a wife/mother was in order.

So whilst his charge is related to his negligence, any jail time will actually be due to him being a Class A twat not the accident itself.

Cheers, Paul. Smile
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul L wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
...it is intriguing that whilst he is certainly a twat and definitely negligent...he is probably going to jail for an accident he didn't cause...

Apologies, I've had a long day and can't cover all the points raised in this thread now.

However, I would suggest that any jail time he gets will be as a direct result of his lack of remorse.

Even if you ignore what his actions as an 18 year old, he is now 20 and in the Old Bailey of all places, not some local court.

But (apparently) at no point in the proceedings he (or more importantly his lawyers) thought a word of regret about the loss of a wife/mother was in order.

So whilst his charge is related to his negligence, any jail time will actually be due to him being a Class A twat not the accident itself.

Cheers, Paul. Smile


not sure that lacking remorse is a jailable offence...and it was the accident that got him charged, not his stupidity...
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Paul L




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC – More apologies from me, as it is now a bit early for this post. Rolling Eyes

Just to be clear, the “causing bodily harm by wanton or furious driving” is the jailable offence.

But the judge has some discretion in applying a jail term vs. a suspended sentence/fine/community service.

My badly worded case was that it is this judge’s discretion where the lack of remorse comes in.

Especially given the fact he was originally charged with manslaughter in the Old Bailey.
( Even a quick bit of Googling should have given him some idea of the significance of this location. )

So I would also argue that is was his stupidity on two counts that got his charged:
- The fact he didn’t have a front brake and didn’t know the law.
- His on line reaction to the accident in an age when social media is noticed.

If he had a front brake and didn’t act like a c**k, the accident would have been treated as such.
( Especially given the fact other cyclists have killed pedestrians without facing any charges. )

Therefore, I do not believe it was the accident that got him charged (if that makes sense).

Cheers, Paul. Smile
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prof_munro




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel sure car driver going less than 20mph would be seen as a saint and the accident just that, tragic of moderate bump of someone walking into road leading to death.

I ride an old fixie, it is "shops" or family ride bike now the young ones are bit more independent but still slow.I'm not very good at the fixie part and am very dependent on the front brake for safety.

As an external juror I want him guilty of something but I think his lawyer and defence case have been at best poor and probably plain bad job during this trial.
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Symes




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lovely tattoo he allegedly had done by his ear after the accident of a crying skull, which was hidden during the trial, bit more of a 'celebratory' than remorseful.

Be very surprised if he doesn't spend some time at Her Majesty's pleasure.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul L wrote:
explorerJC – More apologies from me, as it is now a bit early for this post. Rolling Eyes

Just to be clear, the “causing bodily harm by wanton or furious driving” is the jailable offence.

But the judge has some discretion in applying a jail term vs. a suspended sentence/fine/community service.

My badly worded case was that it is this judge’s discretion where the lack of remorse comes in.

Especially given the fact he was originally charged with manslaughter in the Old Bailey.
( Even a quick bit of Googling should have given him some idea of the significance of this location. )

So I would also argue that is was his stupidity on two counts that got his charged:
- The fact he didn’t have a front brake and didn’t know the law.
- His on line reaction to the accident in an age when social media is noticed.

If he had a front brake and didn’t act like a c**k, the accident would have been treated as such.
( Especially given the fact other cyclists have killed pedestrians without facing any charges. )

Therefore, I do not believe it was the accident that got him charged (if that makes sense).

Cheers, Paul. Smile


however, the CPS don't or shouldn't charge based on their judgement of someone's level of remorse...

the wider issue, of course, is at what point to people not have to take responsibility for their actions now...
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Paul L




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I am obviously not being very clear…

explorerJC wrote:
however, the CPS don't or shouldn't charge based on their judgement of someone's level of remorse...


I don’t think the decision to charge him has anything to do with his remorse, or lack of it.

I’m just pointing out that the judge has sentencing options and that is where his lack of remorse will count against him.
( Especially as the judge has drawn attention to this fact. )

Based on this short CPS statement, I guess his high profile denial of “any” responsibility was the trigger.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/latest_news/cyclist-convicted-over-death-of-ped/

You can dispute the ‘with or without brakes’ test used by the prosecution.

However, you can’t dispute the statement “There was nothing I could do” sounds more believable if you have brakes fitted, than if you don’t.

explorerJC wrote:
…the wider issue, of course, is at what point to people not have to take responsibility for their actions now...


Agreed.
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