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The Sub 11 Ironman Thread
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 1779

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheezy wrote:
Talk to me about doing a critical swim speedtest. I've had a look on the Swimsmooth website and I've spent the last 6 weeks swimming relativley regularly. i'm thinking that I need to do one to structure my aerobic sets a bit more and put some useful data into TP. How long should you leave it between the 400 and the 200 effort? Any other advice?

If you're doing it per the assessment protocol I have always done, then they should both really be maximal efforts, and therefore I've generally seen it said you should leave a good 10 minutes, maybe with some light, easy lengths in that time.

Personally, I find CSS tests massively overestimate my ability. I have been able to get a test to come out with 1:29/100 (5:46 400 and a 2.49 200). I can, and have, held 100 repeats at this speed at club sessions (sometimes even a little faster with a bit of a drafting benefit), but I can't swim that fast in clear water.

And there is no way I can swim that fast for a 1500. My anaerobic endurance contribution across most things is still pretty decent from all my american football years, and I think that makes a noticeable difference to my short interval swim times. For working out pacing for my IM, and for CSS purposes, I actually now just prefer doing full gas 1500's. They're only taking c23mins, and it leaves me nothing like as fatigued as a 20min FTP test or a hard track type session. And they force me to pace properly. A fast 200 can be delivered off a 100m sprint followed by hanging on for dear life, which is a bit of a pointless exercise for triathlon distances.
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice chaps. I will bite the bullet and have a go next week. Not particularly looking forward to it, but i need to see where I am.
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Poet.




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to find a well paced CSS would be a good judge of my 1500 ability - very much like the Jack Daniels running formula.
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JeffB




Joined: 04 May 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anyone is bored tomorrow I'm doing IM Louisville, this seemed like a great idea at the time, but with about 4 long rides, 1 long run, a marathon last week I'm now doubting myself!

I'd originally hoped for sub 11, will now settle to just finish.

Had various niggles after Chicago last week, sinuses have been playing up for the last 3 days and the weather forecast is rubbish, 10c and rain all day.

I'm not even using my own bike and the brakes are the wrong way round, with carbon rims.

More a question of what might go right than what could go wrong.

#2040

Jeff
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TriSam




Joined: 26 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do we have a sub 8 hour Ironman thread?
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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Location: Sub 3 (elect)

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another quiet week. Coming down with a cold, but I think itís pretty much my first one of the year, so I canít really complain. So it looks like next week will be a bit of a write-off as well, but with 40 weeks to go, thereís probably not much need to panic yet! 😃

Swimming. 1hr. 2100m. Lots of drilling again. Didnít feel great, even doing short reps and was probably the first indication that I wasnít firing on all cyclinders.

Bike. 3x 1hr Trainerroad sessions (pettit / black / Baxter-2) All aerobic 65-70%ftp

30 mins total commuting

Run. 0. Foot much better but will probably wait to the weekend, depending on how this cold develops.

4:30hrs total
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Poet.




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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JeffB - That looks GRIM!!! Propane heaters out on the course to warm peoples up 😱
Shortened swim? Still, looks like a sub11 there would be good.
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JeffB wrote:
If anyone is bored tomorrow I'm doing IM Louisville, this seemed like a great idea at the time, but with about 4 long rides, 1 long run, a marathon last week I'm now doubting myself!

I'd originally hoped for sub 11, will now settle to just finish.

Had various niggles after Chicago last week, sinuses have been playing up for the last 3 days and the weather forecast is rubbish, 10c and rain all day.

I'm not even using my own bike and the brakes are the wrong way round, with carbon rims.

More a question of what might go right than what could go wrong.

#2040

Jeff


Just checked in on the tracker on Jeff. Looks like an interesting day! Any idea why the swim was shortened? Because of the cold I presume?
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YKK




Joined: 23 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tri'ing Swimmer wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
General question about this thread; I assume it's a mix of people aspiring for sub-11 and those who've been there?


Been once but not sure I have much to offer yet. If so go long next year would like to update the sub10 thread with yourself and YKK for accountability.


Jeez, don't listen to me,I will just tell you to run a lot!

Knocked out a 6 hr track run the other weekend, 71 1/2k in total. The last hour of that was a good simulation for the last hour of an IM run.

Other than that. No swimming, no cycling as have been on holiday. I am feeling inspired at the moment though and am almost signing up for a swim squad.

Just checked Jeff, looks like he is finishing in 3 minutes, easily under 11 hours. Nice one.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheezy wrote:
JeffB wrote:
If anyone is bored tomorrow I'm doing IM Louisville, this seemed like a great idea at the time, but with about 4 long rides, 1 long run, a marathon last week I'm now doubting myself!

I'd originally hoped for sub 11, will now settle to just finish.

Had various niggles after Chicago last week, sinuses have been playing up for the last 3 days and the weather forecast is rubbish, 10c and rain all day.

I'm not even using my own bike and the brakes are the wrong way round, with carbon rims.

More a question of what might go right than what could go wrong.

#2040

Jeff


Just checked in on the tracker on Jeff. Looks like an interesting day! Any idea why the swim was shortened? Because of the cold I presume?

I was tracking too. Great work on finishing in those conditions. A club mate was racing and I've seen a lot of photos and videos. Looked horrid! He said he was struggling to change gears on the bike as his fingers were so cold!

Wheezy - swim current was too strong apparently. The MPRO started to attempt the full course, but apparently couldn't make any headway upstream. They had to pull them from the water and then change the race to a point to point 0.9 mile swim down current. My mate normally swims about 1.45-1.50/100. He swam 1.00/100!!
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TriSam wrote:
Do we have a sub 8 hour Ironman thread?


Yeah, for HIM Wink
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done on Louisville Jeff!

The US Ironman events seemed to have been widely affected by weather events this year; are there any that actually went ahead as planned?!
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Wheezy wrote:
Talk to me about doing a critical swim speedtest. I've had a look on the Swimsmooth website and I've spent the last 6 weeks swimming relativley regularly. i'm thinking that I need to do one to structure my aerobic sets a bit more and put some useful data into TP. How long should you leave it between the 400 and the 200 effort? Any other advice?

If you're doing it per the assessment protocol I have always done, then they should both really be maximal efforts, and therefore I've generally seen it said you should leave a good 10 minutes, maybe with some light, easy lengths in that time.

Personally, I find CSS tests massively overestimate my ability. I have been able to get a test to come out with 1:29/100 (5:46 400 and a 2.49 200). I can, and have, held 100 repeats at this speed at club sessions (sometimes even a little faster with a bit of a drafting benefit), but I can't swim that fast in clear water.

And there is no way I can swim that fast for a 1500. My anaerobic endurance contribution across most things is still pretty decent from all my american football years, and I think that makes a noticeable difference to my short interval swim times. For working out pacing for my IM, and for CSS purposes, I actually now just prefer doing full gas 1500's. They're only taking c23mins, and it leaves me nothing like as fatigued as a 20min FTP test or a hard track type session. And they force me to pace properly. A fast 200 can be delivered off a 100m sprint followed by hanging on for dear life, which is a bit of a pointless exercise for triathlon distances.


lots to unpack here...

SS has a test protocol which allows for recovery between 400 and 200m TT....and yes they should be max for that distance...however, recovery aside, as long as the protocol is the same and the pre test fatigue is similar, then the tests make useful progress reviews and provide guidance for future training.

As with all estimates of FTP, there are ways of manipulating the outcome which need to be factored in when analysing the results....hence your comment above about pacing which defeats the objective.

Yep, a hard run session/bike FTP will usually leave you far more fatigued...

i assume by clear water you mean open water?
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
i assume by clear water you mean open water?

Nope - just in a pool with an empty lane.
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Poet.




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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheezy wrote:
Another quiet week. Coming down with a cold, but I think itís pretty much my first one of the year, so I canít really complain...


..pah! Get well soon, or stop it in it's tracks!

Speed Week this week - shorter on hours, higher on intensity.
Planned hours were 07:30, all sessions hit, none missed or shortened.
This is sandwiched between an ~10hr strength week and an ~11hr endurance week.
Following endurance week is a 6-7hr recovery week.

Swim 51mins
3 sessions
Drills, 12*100s and a 15 minute pull buoy set.
100s went way better than expected.
Targets re-assessed following this.

Bike 4hrs 12mins
4 sessions
One WattBike FTP builder - great set.
2* fixed gear commutes. Great ride in, horrific way back (headwind and rain)
Due to weather, 40km TT bike ride was changed to road bike.
10:00 warm up, with some 1:00 110+rpm efforts
3 * 10:00 @ 151-159bpm, 5:00 RI
Spin home cool down
Very hard keeping the HR up with a tailwind, very hard keeping it down into the headwind.
Much prefer being out than in...

Run 2hrs 26mins
4 sessions
6*400s @ <4:00/km. Hit these intervals. Happy lamb.
30 min doggy jog
Descending 5km brick run (5:00, 4:40, 4:20, 4:40, 5:00)
1hr doggy jog

overall 7hrs 29mins

Target weight for week hit, though have put on too much over the relaxed weekend - grr!
Resting HR is up one notch, so no worries there.

Focus this week
FTP test tomorrow - massive number of 219W (2.62W/kg) to hit
Long run on Thursday (24km in 2hrs)
Long ride on Sunday (3.5hrs, at the front)
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