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Referendum 2: The return of the #@?#
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
Surely, given the people voted for it, it should be about keeping the people happy, not the politicians?


Well it depends what people wanted when they voted Leave. If it was purely to leave the EU regardless of consequences then that's simple; but I have a sneaking suspicion there will be plenty of moaning & whining when Brexit doesn't match all the Leave voters' expectations.

I can already imagine telling some jaundiced individual that a clusterf*ck at the Border was inevitable, or that Sterling would take another dip, or that their grocery bill would go up....

As long as Leavers accept the short-term pain without blaming the Govt for everything, it will save a lot of STFUs
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just now BBC re Jo Johnson resignation ď he said what was on offer wasn't "anything like what was promised".Ē

For a remainer like me, (and obviously with my double pre referendum prediction [vote out, but something would happen so that it doesnít happen]) I really am enjoying watching this unfold.

Canít believe how adamant May is being about no second referendum, given what her MPs are doing (thinking the Dover gaff), how she is annoying the DUP, and a recent poll putting remain at a 8 point lead.

I am guessing that she is (very rightly) worried about a second SNP referendum on the back of it. However if we leave that, in itself, could force one.

Mind you itís easy for me to analyse from my armchair, but no one can say that I havenít tried to get stuck in at the hard point end. So itís cola and 🍿 as I watch it play out.

While I donít like her sound bites or some of the stuff she does, I have to admire May.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without knowing what is currently on offer, it is hard to know what all this hot air is about...

Certainly no one else wanted the job and thus we will get what May delivers...

She certainly is a tough cookie - no friends at the EU and none at home...

With a full exit, we get the #@?# storm but will at least have some control of it. With a no exit, we lose control and get steered in which ever direction this ship of fools thinks is best*

*It has been very interesting watching some extreme environmentalists (part of a movement I belonged to some 30+ years ago) going into meltdown over the conflict of interests being pro EU places them...
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:


Certainly no one else wanted the job and thus we will get what May delivers...
Boris?

Quote:
With a full exit, we get the #@?# storm but will at least have some control of it. .
but we already know that isnít going to happen, except by a failure of May government to get what she wants. Itís all about delivering Brexit (legal form) while, for all intents and purposes, staying in (without a say) (actual reality substance).

Brexit isnít going to happen Ejc. Not in any meaningful way. The Tories will want to try to win the next election, as they bumble from fire fighting policy crisis to policy crisis. Look at Jorgans post above. Delivering that is unlikely to be in the partyís best interests.

Letís see what the next few months hold. My money is still on no Brexit at all, and failing that a legal form over actual substance Brexit. (May make more sense to accountants here).
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:


Certainly no one else wanted the job and thus we will get what May delivers...
Boris?

Quote:
With a full exit, we get the #@?# storm but will at least have some control of it. .
but we already know that isnít going to happen, except by a failure of May government to get what she wants. Itís all about delivering Brexit (legal form) while, for all intents and purposes, staying in (without a say) (actual reality substance).

Brexit isnít going to happen Ejc. Not in any meaningful way. The Tories will want to try to win the next election, as they bumble from fire fighting policy crisis to policy crisis. Look at Jorgans post above. Delivering that is unlikely to be in the partyís best interests.

Letís see what the next few months hold. My money is still on no Brexit at all, and failing that a legal form over actual substance Brexit. (May make more sense to accountants here).


Er? You need to broaden your reading, Boris didn't run...

This is what happens when you hand over your democracy cheaply for an ideology...you can no longer deliver what the country voted for and probably what it and europe will need in the years to come...

There will be a lot of finger pointing in the years to come and I hope that it is just pointing and laughing, but somehow i doubt it...
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Gus




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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
... and a recent poll putting remain at a 8 point lead.


Come on Sloggers - I'd credited you with more intelligence than to put any credence on something like that...

One thing this whole process (and the same in the US, for that matter) has taught us about 'polls'....
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ejc

That sounds like you are almost agreeing with me Shocked I need a stiff ginger beer.

Your words explain why I think that we need wiser politics (can be the same people just with more thought and reflection and understanding of how not everyone is motivated as they are, one size does not fit all).

Politics is not a game, get it wrong and you stumble from one policy crisis to another, while destroying lives and families and futures. Get it right and you can enable (in the real sense not the spin doctor senses politicians currently use it to cover up (the hopefully accidental as opposed to intentional) destroying people).

While I am finding the current series of governmental gaffs quite educational Ejc, like you, I do worry about the next decade. A lot. I just hope that once the Tories finally exhaust themselves and Labour does whatever it will do (I have very limited Insight into that), that the Tories, the party I was once a member of, before resigning in disgust, recognises itís errors of the past decade and moves positively forwards. Mind you I would also like the Lib Demís to do that, and have my fingers crossed for Labour (I worry about one set of radical policies being replaced by another pulling the country further apart).

Itís a pity that my services are not required by our government as I really do think that I could have helped make people think and done a little to help ensure better future politics. But hey no one can say that I havenít tried to step up at the hard dirty end. (I self nominated to become a cross party peer but unsprisingly was rejected, shame as I would have worked hard going through legislation, asking questions to generate thought, etc).
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
Ejc

That sounds like you are almost agreeing with me Shocked I need a stiff ginger beer.



i think that is stretching credulity somewhat...

SloggingScotsman wrote:
Ejc

Your words explain why I think that we need wiser politics (can be the same people just with more thought and reflection and understanding of how not everyone is motivated as they are, one size does not fit all).

Politics is not a game, get it wrong and you stumble from one policy crisis to another, while destroying lives and families and futures. Get it right and you can enable (in the real sense not the spin doctor senses politicians currently use it to cover up (the hopefully accidental as opposed to intentional) destroying people).



so, reduce the number of politicians and layers of government...good government should barely be noticed...
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Jorgan




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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:


Certainly no one else wanted the job and thus we will get what May delivers...
Boris?


He didn't want the poison chalice of delivering Brexit, all smoke & mirrors. He'll pop his fat head up again once the sh1tstorm is past. He's a self-interested opportunist.
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a sad state of affairs. That is for sure.

I have a lot of sympathy for leavers, who letís face it, are being screwed over. Form over substance is a bad thing in the accountancy world for good reason, and it is equally so in government. You almost couldnít make this farce up.

But donít worry Cameron is bored and wants to become Foreign secretary. Now who was it that initiated this Brexit fiasco?


Our world is stumbling towards war, even Merkel sees that, yet here in Britain, where we should be shining a 💡 we canít even get our government to function effectively.

After Brexit you still have the Real bad stuff of universal credit hitting millions (shame as conceptually it is a good idea), which will cause more havoc. The stuff that even the likes of Reece Moggs talks about as being bad that is seen in MP surgeries is only the tip of the coming iceberg.

How Ďthe natural party of powerí keeps kneecapping itself is fascinating. Egos.

Personally I will be glad when this shambles is over and we get back to wise government. Not political game playing, not career enhancement play, and healing happens as opposed to big scheme radical fear inducing changing the nation. Sure our country needs to move positively forwards, but at a steady controlled rate.

Got to get through Conservative exhaustion and then Labourís radical policies first though.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
It is a sad state of affairs. That is for sure.

I have a lot of sympathy for leavers, who letís face it, are being screwed over. Form over substance is a bad thing in the accountancy world for good reason, and it is equally so in government. You almost couldnít make this farce up.

But donít worry Cameron is bored and wants to become Foreign secretary. Now who was it that initiated this Brexit fiasco?


Our world is stumbling towards war, even Merkel sees that, yet here in Britain, where we should be shining a 💡 we canít even get our government to function effectively.

After Brexit you still have the Real bad stuff of universal credit hitting millions (shame as conceptually it is a good idea), which will cause more havoc. The stuff that even the likes of Reece Moggs talks about as being bad that is seen in MP surgeries is only the tip of the coming iceberg.

How Ďthe natural party of powerí keeps kneecapping itself is fascinating. Egos.

Personally I will be glad when this shambles is over and we get back to wise government. Not political game playing, not career enhancement play, and healing happens as opposed to big scheme radical fear inducing changing the nation. Sure our country needs to move positively forwards, but at a steady controlled rate.

Got to get through Conservative exhaustion and then Labourís radical policies first though.


not sure how the tories are the natural party of power...

it still doesn't appear to have dawned on the population that we have handed the control of the UK to the EU hence the problems in seeing this through....once upon a time, the government was there to serve the people, now the gov and the people serve the ideology of the EU...

not sure how anything can resemble wise government in those circumstances...
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
It is a sad state of affairs. That is for sure.

I have a lot of sympathy for leavers, who letís face it, are being screwed over. Form over substance is a bad thing in the accountancy world for good reason, and it is equally so in government. You almost couldnít make this farce up.

But donít worry Cameron is bored and wants to become Foreign secretary. Now who was it that initiated this Brexit fiasco?


Our world is stumbling towards war, even Merkel sees that, yet here in Britain, where we should be shining a 💡 we canít even get our government to function effectively.

After Brexit you still have the Real bad stuff of universal credit hitting millions (shame as conceptually it is a good idea), which will cause more havoc. The stuff that even the likes of Reece Moggs talks about as being bad that is seen in MP surgeries is only the tip of the coming iceberg.

How Ďthe natural party of powerí keeps kneecapping itself is fascinating. Egos.

Personally I will be glad when this shambles is over and we get back to wise government. Not political game playing, not career enhancement play, and healing happens as opposed to big scheme radical fear inducing changing the nation. Sure our country needs to move positively forwards, but at a steady controlled rate.

Got to get through Conservative exhaustion and then Labourís radical policies first though.


not sure how the tories are the natural party of power...
Thats what some claim, perhaps because they have been around for so long, in one form or another.

Quote:
it still doesn't appear to have dawned on the population that we have handed the control of the UK to the EU hence the problems in seeing this through....once upon a time, the government was there to serve the people, now the gov and the people serve the ideology of the EU...

not sure how anything can resemble wise government in those circumstances...
utter tosh Ejc.

We have problems seeing this through because...

1. The Tories are infighting over it.
2. Personal advantage is being sought by some.
3. The government doesnít really want to do it as it knows (or think it knows) the consequences, but is trying to make democracy work. Itís heart isnít in it.
4. There is the very real imminent risk that the U.K. could literally fall apart because of it. May et all must be aware of this, and presumably is working to prevent it.
5. The government is annoying the DUP, which is only a problem because of Mays election.
6. If medicine stockpiles, food stockpiles, Dover troubles etc do turn out to happen, the country could collapse quickly. Apart from the public order issues, it would make the Toryís unelectable for a very long time. Again they must know this.
7. Iirc as Jo Johnson has said about Boris et all, fantasy promises were made, which the public believed. May has to work with reality around her, including ministers who donít appreciate the extent of reliance on Dover.
8. It simply isnít in the EUs interest to make it easy, given the fact that Poland, Italy et all could make similar decisions. By being difficult it is helping keep the EU together. I mean even Le Pen has softened her stance on leaving.

I actually have a lot of sympathy for May. Itís hard to see who could do better in this Cameron created mess.

Hopefully, looking to the future, one lesson which hopefully will be learnt is to be honest in politicking. I know, I know.
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
SloggingScotsman wrote:
It is a sad state of affairs. That is for sure.

I have a lot of sympathy for leavers, who letís face it, are being screwed over. Form over substance is a bad thing in the accountancy world for good reason, and it is equally so in government. You almost couldnít make this farce up.

But donít worry Cameron is bored and wants to become Foreign secretary. Now who was it that initiated this Brexit fiasco?


Our world is stumbling towards war, even Merkel sees that, yet here in Britain, where we should be shining a 💡 we canít even get our government to function effectively.

After Brexit you still have the Real bad stuff of universal credit hitting millions (shame as conceptually it is a good idea), which will cause more havoc. The stuff that even the likes of Reece Moggs talks about as being bad that is seen in MP surgeries is only the tip of the coming iceberg.

How Ďthe natural party of powerí keeps kneecapping itself is fascinating. Egos.

Personally I will be glad when this shambles is over and we get back to wise government. Not political game playing, not career enhancement play, and healing happens as opposed to big scheme radical fear inducing changing the nation. Sure our country needs to move positively forwards, but at a steady controlled rate.

Got to get through Conservative exhaustion and then Labourís radical policies first though.


not sure how the tories are the natural party of power...
Thats what some claim, perhaps because they have been around for so long, in one form or another.

Quote:
it still doesn't appear to have dawned on the population that we have handed the control of the UK to the EU hence the problems in seeing this through....once upon a time, the government was there to serve the people, now the gov and the people serve the ideology of the EU...

not sure how anything can resemble wise government in those circumstances...
utter tosh Ejc.

We have problems seeing this through because...

1. The Tories are infighting over it.
2. Personal advantage is being sought by some.
3. The government doesnít really want to do it as it knows (or think it knows) the consequences, but is trying to make democracy work. Itís heart isnít in it.
4. There is the very real imminent risk that the U.K. could literally fall apart because of it. May et all must be aware of this, and presumably is working to prevent it.
5. The government is annoying the DUP, which is only a problem because of Mays election.
6. If medicine stockpiles, food stockpiles, Dover troubles etc do turn out to happen, the country could collapse quickly. Apart from the public order issues, it would make the Toryís unelectable for a very long time. Again they must know this.
7. Iirc as Jo Johnson has said about Boris et all, fantasy promises were made, which the public believed. May has to work with reality around her, including ministers who donít appreciate the extent of reliance on Dover.
8. It simply isnít in the EUs interest to make it easy, given the fact that Poland, Italy et all could make similar decisions. By being difficult it is helping keep the EU together. I mean even Le Pen has softened her stance on leaving.

I actually have a lot of sympathy for May. Itís hard to see who could do better in this Cameron created mess.

Hopefully, looking to the future, one lesson which hopefully will be learnt is to be honest in politicking. I know, I know.


so, which part is utter tosh?

that we no longer have control or that the government is meant to serve the people?
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SloggingScotsman




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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bit I pointed out, and explained why.

Wink
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explorerJC




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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SloggingScotsman wrote:
The bit I pointed out, and explained why.

Wink


they are contributory factors to the potential outcome, not the causes..

reality just seems to be passing the population by at present...
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