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If you want a shot at KQ, how and when would you do it?
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 2049

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poet wrote:

I was swimming ~5:40 400s, ~58mins 3.8km in the pool (swim was ~1hr every year)
I was biking under 4:30 and sub hour 25 TT (bike time was ~5:25 every year)
Running was <1:25 half marathon shape, consistently running sub 36 min 10ks (run time was ~3:50 each year)

The thing that jumps out at me from those is that your run endurance seems to tail off quite a lot. I've never run a 36 minute 10k, let alone do them consistently, yet have run under 80mins in HM's the last two years. And did 3:25 in my first long course marathon.
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mattsurf




Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 838
Location: Zug, Switzerland

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What this thread is highlighting is just how hard it is to KQ. How much reduction in pace do you see for older AG? If I look at IM Switzerland last year, in AG 45-49, Swim 1h5m (non wetsuit), Bike 5h, Run 3:20 would be more than enough to qualify
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 18165
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
What this thread is highlighting is just how hard it is to KQ. How much reduction in pace do you see for older AG? If I look at IM Switzerland last year, in AG 45-49, Swim 1h5m (non wetsuit), Bike 5h, Run 3:20 would be more than enough to qualify


I assume it was a hot day though, given the swim? That will make those splits harder to achieve. My only NWS swim was 65 in Frankfurt, and that was 'soft pedalled' knowing the carnage that was to come. I think if you swim around 60 min, nws will be 64-5 min. I do know someone who can hit those splits in our AG and KQ, but it does take a few hard years to get there. I think getting really strong on the bike, and then executing it well on the day gives you more ability to run to your potential.

Getting strong on the bike can help your run, but it doesn't work the other way round.
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Last edited by Jorgan on Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ttowel




Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 4127
Location: Swim School

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Poet wrote:

I was swimming ~5:40 400s, ~58mins 3.8km in the pool (swim was ~1hr every year)
I was biking under 4:30 and sub hour 25 TT (bike time was ~5:25 every year)
Running was <1:25 half marathon shape, consistently running sub 36 min 10ks (run time was ~3:50 each year)

The thing that jumps out at me from those is that your run endurance seems to tail off quite a lot. I've never run a 36 minute 10k, let alone do them consistently, yet have run under 80mins in HM's the last two years. And did 3:25 in my first long course marathon.


What strikes me is that the race execution was very poor. Under 1.25 half marathon should put you in the wet patch of a 3 hour marathon and then running 20-30 mins slower in an Ironman.


Either over did or underdid the tapering and fuelling, but those times are not reflective of the fitness going in.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 18165
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattsurf wrote:
What this thread is highlighting is just how hard it is to KQ. How much reduction in pace do you see for older AG? If I look at IM Switzerland last year, in AG 45-49, Swim 1h5m (non wetsuit), Bike 5h, Run 3:20 would be more than enough to qualify


Just to add. I think from what I can see of your training, you are skinning the cat in the right way i.e. trying to really get strong on the bike, and fit the other two into that regime. As we age, I think too much run focus is counter productive; however you can recover from hard bike training a lot more readily.
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Tri'ing Swimmer




Joined: 15 Nov 2016
Posts: 216

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ttowel wrote:
stenard wrote:
Poet wrote:

I was swimming ~5:40 400s, ~58mins 3.8km in the pool (swim was ~1hr every year)
I was biking under 4:30 and sub hour 25 TT (bike time was ~5:25 every year)
Running was <1:25 half marathon shape, consistently running sub 36 min 10ks (run time was ~3:50 each year)

The thing that jumps out at me from those is that your run endurance seems to tail off quite a lot. I've never run a 36 minute 10k, let alone do them consistently, yet have run under 80mins in HM's the last two years. And did 3:25 in my first long course marathon.


What strikes me is that the race execution was very poor. Under 1.25 half marathon should put you in the wet patch of a 3 hour marathon and then running 20-30 mins slower in an Ironman.


Either over did or underdid the tapering and fuelling, but those times are not reflective of the fitness going in.


5:25 Outlaw course looks appropriate if able to <4:30 century, so doesnít look like typical over biking, but agree itís a run drop off. I run a 1:25 1/2M and ran 3:30 at Outlaw, from low volume run training.
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YKK




Joined: 23 Oct 2011
Posts: 312
Location: North&West london

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorgan wrote:
mattsurf wrote:
What this thread is highlighting is just how hard it is to KQ. How much reduction in pace do you see for older AG? If I look at IM Switzerland last year, in AG 45-49, Swim 1h5m (non wetsuit), Bike 5h, Run 3:20 would be more than enough to qualify


I assume it was a hot day though, given the swim? That will make those splits harder to achieve. My only NWS swim was 65 in Frankfurt, and that was 'soft pedalled' knowing the carnage that was to come. I think if you swim around 60 min, nws will be 64-5 min. I do know someone who can hit those splits in our AG and KQ, but it does take a few hard years to get there. I think getting really strong on the bike, and then executing it well on the day gives you more ability to run to your potential.

Getting strong on the bike can help your run, but it doesn't work the other way round.


Assuming it is still the same course as when I did it in 2010, Switzerland is not the quickest course, so 5hr if you are not an uber biker/walk marathon type I would say is a tough ask.
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Poet




Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 10111
Location: Your Mum

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking back now, a lack of easy century rides probably hindered the run.
Like ttowel said, having that huge base of century rides should really help.

Looking back, I believe a lot of it was mental.
I just didn't see the point of hurting that much for some arbitrary goal.

My Race Report wrote:

I was bang on until 30km, as I passed the 2:32 (5:03/km) run time mark. Simples.
Keep it up, only 12km, or an hour to go.
I couldn't do it and just sort of gave up.
Rubbish.
...someone put just over 3 minutes into me from the leaderboard to the finish! He must've dug so deep.
Wish I knew how to go there.


For progression and Kona being a long term goal, here is a six year progression to it, courtesy of Tom Van Rossum (starting point is similar to stenard)

completed Outlaw 2012 in 9:50 (1:06/5:12/3:27)
Did a 9:16 at Roth in 2015 (1:03/4:51/3:18 )
qualified for Kona in Nice 2018, 3rd in his AG with a 9:26 (59/5:12/3:06)
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