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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
I dknt freaking believe it.

Just finished the FTP test - it's 228 *again*.

I really struggled with this test unlike previous ones, but that's not credible. The last three tests have all shown 228. I bet other people couldn't get three FTP results precisely the same if they planned it!

Time to bin TR?


it would be too flippant to say if you do the same training, you get the same results...was the test protocol and were the fatigue levels the same?

have you done much threshold work or has it just been pretty much LSD apart from the odd vo2?
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Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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Location: Bromley

PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
I dknt freaking believe it.

Just finished the FTP test - it's 228 *again*.

I really struggled with this test unlike previous ones, but that's not credible. The last three tests have all shown 228. I bet other people couldn't get three FTP results precisely the same if they planned it!

Time to bin TR?


it would be too flippant to say if you do the same training, you get the same results...was the test protocol and were the fatigue levels the same?

have you done much threshold work or has it just been pretty much LSD apart from the odd vo2?


Not at all I'd agree, but the build phase I've just finished was different from the Base phase that got me to 228 in the first place. The speciality phase is different again.

Hard to say what my fatigue levels are, last week I trained for a few days after the 70.3 but had nothing in me so had a long weekend off. Did a short run yesterday to wake me up, then built the bike and turbo for he test today.

TR are advising me to turn it down a bit this week and retest next week, and change the protocol slightly so I dont look at power during the 20min session.

Im always in a bad mood after FTP testing! At least I got a decent run in this evening, so I'm feeling a bit more upbeat.

Cheers.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biking is the area where I struggle most to make gains; it's nearly always the swim or run where I have the good sessions that boost my morale, and the biking that generally seems to just hit a ceiling once I've blown away the winter cobwebs.

Swam just over 3k OW yesterday, averaging 1:32/100m Cool Nice HIM paced Brick run on Monday, 5.3km averaging 4:14/km Cool Only the 5x5' VO2 wattbike intervals preceding the run were same old Blank Stare
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Wheezy




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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
I dknt freaking believe it.

Just finished the FTP test - it's 228 *again*.

I really struggled with this test unlike previous ones, but that's not credible. The last three tests have all shown 228. I bet other people couldn't get three FTP results precisely the same if they planned it!

Time to bin TR?


it would be too flippant to say if you do the same training, you get the same results...was the test protocol and were the fatigue levels the same?

have you done much threshold work or has it just been pretty much LSD apart from the odd vo2?


Not at all I'd agree, but the build phase I've just finished was different from the Base phase that got me to 228 in the first place. The speciality phase is different again.

Hard to say what my fatigue levels are, last week I trained for a few days after the 70.3 but had nothing in me so had a long weekend off. Did a short run yesterday to wake me up, then built the bike and turbo for he test today.

TR are advising me to turn it down a bit this week and retest next week, and change the protocol slightly so I dont look at power during the 20min session.

Im always in a bad mood after FTP testing! At least I got a decent run in this evening, so I'm feeling a bit more upbeat.

Cheers.


I would have thought if you were following the TR plans consistently, which you are, you would would have seen some increase in ftp, even if modest. In addition to the other points raised, do you have a cooling fan when you are on the turbo? You could be excessively overheating and seeing a power drop that way? With the ftp test I do find you have to treat it like an event, and really commit to it. I'm a complete blubbering mess at the end of mine.
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TriSam




Joined: 26 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TP will you be at the interclub TT on Thursday? Using your powermeter for that is a better "real" test of a 20 minute effort I find. It's putting yourself in a race situation, on the open roads to collect some valuable data.
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Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the comments guys, I did the last test in the garden, overcast with a brief spit of rain but no wind or fan. Another thing to correct for next time.

I have been an it spaced since getting back from France so Im hoping that's it.

I'm not sure about the TT tomorrow but I was thinking the same. I have a power file from the A21, Avg239 NP250, but it includes the cool down on the way back to the start point - I'll look for some software to edit it.
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Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
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PhilleusPhogg




Joined: 11 May 2015
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
I have a power file from the A21, Avg239 NP250, but it includes the cool down on the way back to the start point - I'll look for some software to edit it.


Dunno if you're on Strava, but in the Analysis view there, you can select a portion of a ride on the graph, and it will 'zoom in' and give you average power/speed/HR etc. for the section you've selected.
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hammerer




Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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Location: Right Next Door To Hell

PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
I dknt freaking believe it.

Just finished the FTP test - it's 228 *again*.

I really struggled with this test unlike previous ones, but that's not credible. The last three tests have all shown 228. I bet other people couldn't get three FTP results precisely the same if they planned it!

Time to bin TR?


And this proves once again why testing for a lot of individuals can be pointless. Was you tapered in like in a race? Did you have the exact same fatigue levels, stress levels and sleep pattern the night before. Had you fuelled identically to the last test, was you well hydrated, was the air temp and humidity the same, how was your resting HR that day compared to previously. If no then the test is meaningless when compared. Use your figures over the weeks to work out your "FTP". Dr Coggan didnt even prescribe a 20 min test, that was invented by Hunter Allen and not endorsed by the main man responsible for the science behind it all. Dr Coggan describes FTP as "The highest power that a rider can maintain in a quasi-steady state without fatiguing for approximately one hour. When power exceeds FTP, fatigue will occur much sooner, whereas power just below FTP can be maintained considerably longer"

So forget a pointless 20minute test, review your statistics from rides and be happy when that 20min climb is done at a faster pace for the same effort levels or that 25mile TT is a new pb. Thats the only test you'll need.
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hammerer




Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tin Pot wrote:
explorerJC wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
I dknt freaking believe it.

Just finished the FTP test - it's 228 *again*.

I really struggled with this test unlike previous ones, but that's not credible. The last three tests have all shown 228. I bet other people couldn't get three FTP results precisely the same if they planned it!

Time to bin TR?


it would be too flippant to say if you do the same training, you get the same results...was the test protocol and were the fatigue levels the same?

have you done much threshold work or has it just been pretty much LSD apart from the odd vo2?


Not at all I'd agree, but the build phase I've just finished was different from the Base phase that got me to 228 in the first place. The speciality phase is different again.

Hard to say what my fatigue levels are, last week I trained for a few days after the 70.3 but had nothing in me so had a long weekend off. Did a short run yesterday to wake me up, then built the bike and turbo for he test today.

TR are advising me to turn it down a bit this week and retest next week, and change the protocol slightly so I dont look at power during the 20min session.

Im always in a bad mood after FTP testing! At least I got a decent run in this evening, so I'm feeling a bit more upbeat.

Cheers.


And there it is! Had you raced a 70.3 a week before your last test? No thought not. This is why blindly following an off the shelf plan with no thought process is gonna leave you tired, under recovered and disillusioned with the apparent lack of progress because of meaningless figures you have no understanding of.
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Tri'ing Swimmer




Joined: 15 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't have done a meaningful test at start of this week, took me til yesterday to feel like I'm back on track for full training despite 3 days completely off and 4 easy days in the 10 days since race. Granted know people tend to recover faster with more experience, but still a good reason why your test results could be underestimating current potential.
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explorerJC




Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammerer wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
I dknt freaking believe it.

Just finished the FTP test - it's 228 *again*.

I really struggled with this test unlike previous ones, but that's not credible. The last three tests have all shown 228. I bet other people couldn't get three FTP results precisely the same if they planned it!

Time to bin TR?


And this proves once again why testing for a lot of individuals can be pointless. Was you tapered in like in a race? Did you have the exact same fatigue levels, stress levels and sleep pattern the night before. Had you fuelled identically to the last test, was you well hydrated, was the air temp and humidity the same, how was your resting HR that day compared to previously. If no then the test is meaningless when compared. Use your figures over the weeks to work out your "FTP". Dr Coggan didnt even prescribe a 20 min test, that was invented by Hunter Allen and not endorsed by the main man responsible for the science behind it all. Dr Coggan describes FTP as "The highest power that a rider can maintain in a quasi-steady state without fatiguing for approximately one hour. When power exceeds FTP, fatigue will occur much sooner, whereas power just below FTP can be maintained considerably longer"

So forget a pointless 20minute test, review your statistics from rides and be happy when that 20min climb is done at a faster pace for the same effort levels or that 25mile TT is a new pb. Thats the only test you'll need.


The test doesn't become meaningless if all the stars are not aligned but all factors need to be taken into account. Similarly you never race with the same start point and have to do what you can with the numbers on the day.

The main value of the 20 min test is the recovery time and the self administration. Done correctly they can provide a useful guide to progress without disturbing a training programme too much. But the value is only in the interpretation of the data.

Hour tests are more valuable but take greater administration. They too require appropriate interpretation. Also, if you fek up your pace, the resultant productive training time is reduced and you still have no effective data.
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hammerer




Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 16333
Location: Right Next Door To Hell

PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

explorerJC wrote:
hammerer wrote:
Tin Pot wrote:
I dknt freaking believe it.

Just finished the FTP test - it's 228 *again*.

I really struggled with this test unlike previous ones, but that's not credible. The last three tests have all shown 228. I bet other people couldn't get three FTP results precisely the same if they planned it!

Time to bin TR?


And this proves once again why testing for a lot of individuals can be pointless. Was you tapered in like in a race? Did you have the exact same fatigue levels, stress levels and sleep pattern the night before. Had you fuelled identically to the last test, was you well hydrated, was the air temp and humidity the same, how was your resting HR that day compared to previously. If no then the test is meaningless when compared. Use your figures over the weeks to work out your "FTP". Dr Coggan didnt even prescribe a 20 min test, that was invented by Hunter Allen and not endorsed by the main man responsible for the science behind it all. Dr Coggan describes FTP as "The highest power that a rider can maintain in a quasi-steady state without fatiguing for approximately one hour. When power exceeds FTP, fatigue will occur much sooner, whereas power just below FTP can be maintained considerably longer"

So forget a pointless 20minute test, review your statistics from rides and be happy when that 20min climb is done at a faster pace for the same effort levels or that 25mile TT is a new pb. Thats the only test you'll need.


The test doesn't become meaningless if all the stars are not aligned but all factors need to be taken into account. Similarly you never race with the same start point and have to do what you can with the numbers on the day.

The main value of the 20 min test is the recovery time and the self administration. Done correctly they can provide a useful guide to progress without disturbing a training programme too much. But the value is only in the interpretation of the data.

Hour tests are more valuable but take greater administration. They too require appropriate interpretation. Also, if you fek up your pace, the resultant productive training time is reduced and you still have no effective data.


First up this is TinPot so all the rules go out the window Wink second I'm not sure testing off the back of a middle distance race is the ideal time but I refer to point one Wink

you only need to look at your data to see a true reflection of FTP though and the 20min test isn't accurate, especially as a lot of people don't warm up enough or do the 5min VO2 Max effort hard enough, or even at all to add fatigue before the 20mins but as a T20 test it is a benchmark, just not ideal test of current aerobic conditioning. I do agree in itself it is a good session so can be used as a guide but so can a lot of sessions. 3x15mins with 5min rests is a good benchmark. For me a lot of testing is seriously flawed due to how and when they are performed. Doesn't mean you shouldn't test but as you say you need to analyze the results and not take the figures at face value, unless it's a coach who knows your training and fatigue levels into the test and has controlled environment.

The only test that matters is race day Wink
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Tin Pot




Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha ha, I try to fit the mold honest!

I don't set any store in the FTP value outside of the training protocol - within the training plan it should be reliable. The training plans are designed to run consecutively. Each plan starts with an FTP test and allows for a 70.3 race in the last week of each plan. So they expect me to have raced and test soon after. In my case I raced a week early, so it was nine days before testing rather than two.

I did bugger all training last week as I was so pissed off, and relaxed over the weekend had a little wine and some ice cream Smile Retested today: 230. Sigh.

There's no point testing again so this is the basis for the next seven weeks bike training.

I did 16 weeks mid volume for Base, 8 weeks high volume for Build - don't think I can conclude high volume build helped me at all, so I may switch to mid or low volume Speciality and focus on running instead.
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Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
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Trail 10K '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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Murph333




Joined: 29 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello TP,

I figure I would chime in here. I am doing the same program as you (however its the low volume) and have been able to add some extra rides in here and there so maybe getting close to the Mid Volume but not always that level of TSS.

Start of Low Volume Build FTP = 209
Start of Low Volume Base FTP = 227
Start of Low Volume Spec FTP = 246 (wasn't a great test so maybe closer to 250ish)

meanwhile I have been able to basically reduce my 5k time by 3min, 10k by 6min and took 10min off my 1/2 Marathon PB.

I don't know if its TrainerRoads program that is failing, is there a chance that your first FTP test wasn't correct and spent the 16 weeks at a lower % of FTP and not gaining much benefit?

Advice that I was given for FTP testing was after the test you should want to take the bike and throw it into the road and watch a bus drive over it and be happy.


Either way numbers are just numbers, how you execute during race day makes all the difference and more importantly how fast you can get a pint after finishing.
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murph333 wrote:

meanwhile I have been able to basically reduce my 5k time by 3min, 10k by 6min and took 10min off my 1/2 Marathon PB.


Sounds like you must be a relative newcomer to endurance sports with those sorts of gains?
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