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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roscoemck wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
^^ Zwift is also a pretty good motivator; concentrating on catching the next person in front of you is a nice boost. My effort on the Alpe on Sunday indicates I might need to test again (56 min at just over 92.5% FTP).


Zwift would be great, but I'm using the Wattbike at the gym, not sure it's compatible. Budget is also an issue!


Fair one. I only use it once a week at the moment which isn't great value. Plus to get anything worthwhile out of it, you need to use a PM or smart trainer as a minimum.

ETA - actually thinking about it; 3 to ride up the virtual Alpe or do a race online isn't that bad in the scheme of things like takeaway coffees etc!
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stenard




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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roscoemck wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
^^ Zwift is also a pretty good motivator; concentrating on catching the next person in front of you is a nice boost. My effort on the Alpe on Sunday indicates I might need to test again (56 min at just over 92.5% FTP).


Zwift would be great, but I'm using the Wattbike at the gym, not sure it's compatible. Budget is also an issue!

Depending on what phone you have, you could give Trainerroad a try. I have some free trial months I can send to people if you wanted to give it a go?

Here's an example session I did on the wattbike at the gym myself recently: https://www.strava.com/activities/2068724528
You can see the image of the workout structure, and all the lap information is automatically generated. There's more detail on the trainerroad website for you to review, but you can only access that once signed up.

In terms of phone, if you have a Samsung one with ant+ built in (my Galaxy S7 does) then you don't need anything further to connect to the wattbike. If it doesnt, then you'd need to manually connect ant+ to your phone - it's quite expensive to do that on an iPhone, but on android it's pretty easy with an OTG cable and an ant+ dongle.

There's more info here on connecting TR to a wattbike: https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201871784-Wattbike
If you are lucky, it seems like some wattbikes also have bluetooth connections now, which obviously all phones would have.

DM me if you wanted a free month code.
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Roscoemck




Joined: 10 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Roscoemck wrote:
Ok, so here come the stupid questions! Define raw results/protocol? I have all the numbers saved, what am I looking at?

Was actually surprised I managed to hold it to the end and don't feel worse today

Well, what did you do? You said you did a threshold test, so what procedure (/protocol) did you follow? There are a wide range of options ... 20 minute test, 2*8 minute test, ramp test, etc.

In terms of raw results, I am guessing you have some power numbers from specific segments of the test that you then said you put in the BC calculator. I was interested to know what they were, but also any power numbers you have from earlier segments of the test.


For example, on the 20 minute test, it's generally accepted you need a 5 minute hard effort before the 20 minute segment, to eliminate some of the anaerobic contribution to the main test interval that follows. If you go too easy in that 5 minutes, (or maybe even too hard), that could impact your subsequent result.

One thing to note in general is to try and ensure repeatability of whatever testing you decide to do. That way, even if the results are necessarily comparable with others, they are at least comparable to yourself and you can track your own development.

EDIT - I just located this by googling british cycling threshold test. That seems like a pretty brutal one, being the final 20mins of a 30min solid effort. That's very different from a standard 20 minute test. Not sure if this was the one you used, but it at least gives an idea of what I meant by "protocol".


Thanks Stenard. That's the very one I did! I then put the results into the calculator on the BC site.
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Roscoemck




Joined: 10 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Roscoemck wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
^^ Zwift is also a pretty good motivator; concentrating on catching the next person in front of you is a nice boost. My effort on the Alpe on Sunday indicates I might need to test again (56 min at just over 92.5% FTP).


Zwift would be great, but I'm using the Wattbike at the gym, not sure it's compatible. Budget is also an issue!

Depending on what phone you have, you could give Trainerroad a try. I have some free trial months I can send to people if you wanted to give it a go?

Here's an example session I did on the wattbike at the gym myself recently: https://www.strava.com/activities/2068724528
You can see the image of the workout structure, and all the lap information is automatically generated. There's more detail on the trainerroad website for you to review, but you can only access that once signed up.

In terms of phone, if you have a Samsung one with ant+ built in (my Galaxy S7 does) then you don't need anything further to connect to the wattbike. If it doesnt, then you'd need to manually connect ant+ to your phone - it's quite expensive to do that on an iPhone, but on android it's pretty easy with an OTG cable and an ant+ dongle.

There's more info here on connecting TR to a wattbike: https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201871784-Wattbike
If you are lucky, it seems like some wattbikes also have bluetooth connections now, which obviously all phones would have.

DM me if you wanted a free month code.


Thanks again!

I have an iphone. I'll check the Wattbike, but it looks like the early version, certainly not an Atom
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Wheezy




Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:


If you are lucky, it seems like some wattbikes also have bluetooth connections now, which obviously all phones would have.

DM me if you wanted a free month code.


That's what I have started doing for the last few weeks. The gym I go to has wattbike pros so they sync via bluetooth with my iphone 6.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roscoemck wrote:
Thanks Stenard. That's the very one I did! I then put the results into the calculator on the BC site.

On the surface, that seems like a horrible test. Especially straight off the bat without ever having tested before or knowing what kind of number you are expecting. Moreover, 5% off what you held for the final 20 minutes of what is actually a 30 minute effort seems really hard.

All other 20 minute tests are 5% off just a 20 minute effort. Put it this way, I would not expect to achieve the same kind of 95% result in a test such as that, compared to a test profile like this:


The solid block at the end is only 20 minutes long.

Your result of 174W implies you held 183W average for the final 20 minutes of that test. How consistent was that 183 average? Were you plus or minus only a few watts throughout, or did you start too hard and fade? What did you average for the first 10 minutes (that didnt "count")?

My gut reaction is that being a first test, it was far from optimally performed (ignoring the fact 20mins of 30 seems really hard!). I know it took me a few goes when I first started to feel like I executed one properly. And the issue with these longer tests are that they're really fatiguing, so you cant keep repeating them in short succession.
Roscoemck wrote:
I have an iphone. I'll check the Wattbike, but it looks like the early version, certainly not an Atom

From what I understand, it's not whether it's an atom or not. The original wattbikes can come with one of two display screens. One is potentially BT compatible (as Wheezy has now implied he gets to use).
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In some respects, I think it would be better if they just called it "20 min Power".
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Poet.




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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They do!!!
CP20
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Jorgan




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poet. wrote:
They do!!!
CP20


But then everyone does the 0.95% and calls it 'FTP'. In fact, if it was just average 20 min power, it would be a more accurate reflection. The point being that many people interpret FTP to mean something other than 20 min average power i.e. that's what I can average for an hour (which is generally fantasy). 'Functional' Power is actually a very variable thing.
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stenard




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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that I use it, but that's what I understand the TTE metric in WKO4 reflects. At least, it's what a coach talked me through on a training camp once. You get a FTP value that the system computes, but also an indication of how long the software thinks you can practically hold that for
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Roscoemck




Joined: 10 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stenard wrote:
Roscoemck wrote:
Thanks Stenard. That's the very one I did! I then put the results into the calculator on the BC site.

On the surface, that seems like a horrible test. Especially straight off the bat without ever having tested before or knowing what kind of number you are expecting. Moreover, 5% off what you held for the final 20 minutes of what is actually a 30 minute effort seems really hard.

All other 20 minute tests are 5% off just a 20 minute effort. Put it this way, I would not expect to achieve the same kind of 95% result in a test such as that, compared to a test profile like this:


The solid block at the end is only 20 minutes long.

Your result of 174W implies you held 183W average for the final 20 minutes of that test. How consistent was that 183 average? Were you plus or minus only a few watts throughout, or did you start too hard and fade? What did you average for the first 10 minutes (that didnt "count")?

My gut reaction is that being a first test, it was far from optimally performed (ignoring the fact 20mins of 30 seems really hard!). I know it took me a few goes when I first started to feel like I executed one properly. And the issue with these longer tests are that they're really fatiguing, so you cant keep repeating them in short succession.
Roscoemck wrote:
I have an iphone. I'll check the Wattbike, but it looks like the early version, certainly not an Atom

From what I understand, it's not whether it's an atom or not. The original wattbikes can come with one of two display screens. One is potentially BT compatible (as Wheezy has now implied he gets to use).



I'll check the Wattbike out tomorrow night. Must be something as it connects the Wattbike app.

It certainly wasn't a "perfect" test as I wasn't sure how hard to etc. Looking at the limited graphs on Training Peaks I did seem to keep things fairly steady.
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Roscoemck




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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the advice guys. There's a lot of good knowledge on this forum without the willy waving you see on other forums.
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Poet.




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think (!?!) you can enter ROUVY20 into Training Peaks for a free month...that's what I am currently using (the code has gone, but that may have been it)

Re: CP20/FTP

FTP = Functional Threshold Power. The maximum power you can sustain for one whole hour. Sixty minutes.

CP20 = Critical Power for 20 minutes.

Most tests use 95% of the CP20, which is a reasonable approximation, IF you do the test properly and don't "game" it.

I use the WattBike test protocol, 20 minute proper warm up with a good effort in there, to avoid that anaerobic boost you may get with all that lovely glycogen in the system.

The first test I did, I literally had no idea of what I could hold for 20 minutes, so it was a guess, based on previous estimates and five year old test.
I just stuck the bike at that, and pedalled for 20 minutes at 95rpm.
Simple in theory, hard to execute.

I would not ramp up for the final two/three minutes, like some test will have you do. Why? Well, you can surely pump out somewhere close to that 5 minute maximum power for the final push home, but that's MASSIVELY affecting your FTP.

E.g. on a 264W CP20, if I pushed the last 3 minutes at 351W, I get a bump up to 277W...I doubt I could hold that for an hour. How? Well...that's a high 57 minute 25TT (bike calculator dot com)

The FTP number is meaningless if you cannot train with it (it's too high or low), therefore making that expensive power meter redundant.
If, however, you are just using it as a 4-6 week barometer of your fitness, executing the test in the same way each time (same lead in period, same test, same bike etc), then that's A-OK!
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jibberjim




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poet. wrote:
I would not ramp up for the final two/three minutes, like some test will have you do. Why? Well, you can surely pump out somewhere close to that 5 minute maximum power for the final push home, but that's MASSIVELY affecting your FTP.


You seriously should not be able to, if you can, you've mis-paced it. If you have massive non-aerobic abilities then you might be able to lift it for under a minute at the end, but there's no chance you can lift it for three without having under worked the beginning.

An optimal physiologically paced test will for most people lift at the end (and at the beginning) with the third quarter being the lowest. Simply because the body knows it's coming to the end of the time, so can go harder. It shouldn't be identically paced.

Poet. wrote:
The FTP number is meaningless if you cannot train with it (it's too high or low), therefore making that expensive power meter redundant.


Training to a number is foolishness anyway until at the very least you've reached a plateau of fitness, since you cannot know the changes since the last test, or if your day to day variance impacts it.
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Roscoemck




Joined: 10 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poet. wrote:
I think (!?!) you can enter ROUVY20 into Training Peaks for a free month...that's what I am currently using (the code has gone, but that may have been it)

Re: CP20/FTP

FTP = Functional Threshold Power. The maximum power you can sustain for one whole hour. Sixty minutes.

CP20 = Critical Power for 20 minutes.

Most tests use 95% of the CP20, which is a reasonable approximation, IF you do the test properly and don't "game" it.

I use the WattBike test protocol, 20 minute proper warm up with a good effort in there, to avoid that anaerobic boost you may get with all that lovely glycogen in the system.

The first test I did, I literally had no idea of what I could hold for 20 minutes, so it was a guess, based on previous estimates and five year old test.
I just stuck the bike at that, and pedalled for 20 minutes at 95rpm.
Simple in theory, hard to execute.

I would not ramp up for the final two/three minutes, like some test will have you do. Why? Well, you can surely pump out somewhere close to that 5 minute maximum power for the final push home, but that's MASSIVELY affecting your FTP.

E.g. on a 264W CP20, if I pushed the last 3 minutes at 351W, I get a bump up to 277W...I doubt I could hold that for an hour. How? Well...that's a high 57 minute 25TT (bike calculator dot com)

The FTP number is meaningless if you cannot train with it (it's too high or low), therefore making that expensive power meter redundant.
If, however, you are just using it as a 4-6 week barometer of your fitness, executing the test in the same way each time (same lead in period, same test, same bike etc), then that's A-OK!


Thanks for the code, I'll give that a go.

I'm simply using it as a measure of fitness and to give me some guidance on the Wattbike when training.
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